The Keep talk:The Embassy
Discussion of Wiki Translations and Tiers for Wiki and Game Translations Related: - "Inactive translators on Transifex" Below is some material I have copied from the Wizards of the Wiki guild to make it easier for us to review it all and continue the conversation here. LadyAlys (talk) 03:51, March 13, 2016 (UTC) ;Sphinx :@Alys thank you very much for your comment on GitHub. The problems with reviewing applications of linguistic scribes are actually the reason I've suggested this example... the only difference being that the situation on Transifex may be a bit more confusing from the organizational point of view ;-) ;Alys :@Sphinx : Linguistic Scribe tiers are really hard to judge. I pretty much just have to look for large volumes of work with no obvious re-edits, and no undos, and it takes a while to look through page histories to get that information. There's only ever been a few tiers awarded. One thing I'd like to see is the Transifex work become organised enough that we have a body of reviewers we can trust and then they could perhaps be persuaded to review wiki contributions as well. But if you have other ideas, I'm certainly listening! :) ;Sphinx :@Alys I see your point and we surely should have that in mind. Please excuse me for seeming light-minded about that. :Regarding reviewing of the scribes' effort, I know it's not easy even for the language you speak. And I admire the work you do (should I better say "admire you" smiley) I've made this example only to highlight that even with all the difficulties of reviewing the work of linguistic scribes, you manage to maintain a certain required level of work for the first tier, not just "sign up and make at least some public actions" (that being said, I know that's been done for good and deserving purposes and it's been working - so we got 1719 translators working on 133 languages). :We could think of including a requirement for Transifex reviewers to at least look through the articles edited by linguistic scribes - when they submit applications, and e.g. put a stamp in discussion "reviewed by Reviewer today, no errors, style is OK" or not OK... :At the same time unfortunately most Transifex reviewers are not motivated to that extent currently. In fact there's plenty of work for the reviewers on Transifex. As I've suggested on GitHub they are just trusted translators who combine efforts of translating, improving previously translated strings and monitoring new lines being translated by newbies. Notifications and other Transifex tools prove to be not very helpful. Moreover, as we have a special badge for just being appointed a reviewer, many reviewers are not very active. :As I believe we need gradual step-by-step testing for changes on Transifex, I do think we could try at least "asking" language teams and reviewers to help you reviewing those applications of linguistic scribes. But they will need detailed guidelines of what to do - and I'm not sure what motivation will work for them... ;Sphinx :revisiting the question of accessing translated wikis :Actually we do have an opportunity to make translated wikis accessible from the web UI with HabiticaWikiFrontPage string which has the link to wiki. As of now, it seems only the French team has utilised this option. On the other hand I believe users should be warned the translated text can be less accurate and up-to-date (in comparison to the English wiki) when they visit the page guided by the link from UI. :I like the idea of the German wiki: they have the following template explaining the aspect. :Please note that this article is a part of the translation of Habitica Wiki. :There is no guarantee that it contains the same information as the original. The information may be outdated due to delays in the translation. This page links maybe on pages that there is not yet or no longer or mentions things that no longer exist in the game. If you want to participate in the translation, you can find additional information here. :But I'd make the text a bit more friendly. I'd suggest having a nice-looking unified template - which can be inserted not only into the front page of the translated wikis, but also into the pages linked with "translated" links (currently about 37 links to the wiki are translatable). What do you think? ;cTheDragons :@Sphinx For all intensive purposes I am English speaker (I speak another language but it so poor I be reluctant to read Habitica wiki pages in it). However I do like the idea of the "badge with a link to the original" at the top of translated pages so the user is aware. If I was reading a translated page I would like this myself so I have the option doing some further investigation. ;Sphinx :Regarding linguistic wikis, I'd like to revisit my suggestion to have translated wikis mention possible inaccuracy and time lag in translations. :After comparing the translated wikis I must admit, that while the message-in-the-box template may look OK on ordinary pages, IMHO it spoils the look and feel of the frontpage. Just compare the French and German wikis... :So, the question is if we might use the Welcome section of the front page (that has links to other wikis including the English ones) for this purpose. May we test something like this: :Welcome! :Learn how to play Habitica, an open-source habit building program that treats your life like a Role Playing Game. :This wiki is written and maintained by the players of Habitica. It is also available in English, Français, and Deutsch. The English Wiki may have more information on certain subjects. Please join us to keep the (language) wiki up-to-date too! ;Alys :@Sphinx : Sorry! I am definitely interested in your wiki warning idea. I still have your previous comment marked for me to respond to it. :( Tomorrow I'll get through my backlog! I like your suggested text and will add it tomorrow if none of the other admins do. :EDIT: Alys can't modify the front pages of the translated wikis and so didn't do that. ;Sphinx :@Alys regarding welcoming warnings on the frontpages of the translated wikis: :It's not urgent. On the contrary, that's just some thoughts aloud in case someone else is thinking on this. Do maintainers of the translated wikis have enough rights to modify the translated frontpages? ;Alys :@Sphinx : It's a good idea though - I definitely want to do it. :The person who creates a translated wiki is the primary admin for that wiki and should have rights to do everything on it. They can also make other users admins if they wish to. So yes, the maintainers of the translated wikis can modify their own frontpages, and in fact they have to do it themselves. The admins of the English wiki don't have admin rights on any other wiki (unless they are given them by the other wiki's admins). ;Sphinx :[edited to remove things not directly related to this page] :Translated wikis use shared repository of images. Some background info can be found here. @hairlessbear has formulated some practical guidelines, but I can't find them now. As far as I remember, when you create a language wiki, you ask admins of the English wiki to link it to the shared repository of images. After that's done, you'll be able to insert images from the English wiki into translated articles with just the same code as on the English wiki. Those images will be unavailable from insert-image menu, so you'll need just to copy the part of the source code like ;Sphinx :@Alys can the wikia show us the list of language-wikis already added to the shared image repository of Habitica.wikia.com? ;Sphinx :Answering the questions received from @warownia1 in case someone else has additional suggestions. :1. The Guidance for Linguists does ask new translators to announce their willingness to contribute on Trello. I believe it may be done just to introduce yourself so that you can be addressed later should the staff/mods have any suggestions regarding your language. I believe Wiki translators may introduce themselves on Trello too - letting the subscribers of the translation card know that Habitica gets a new contributor working on the wiki translation. Then you may find useful joining the guilds: Wizards of the Wiki - discussing questions regarding wiki editing, Commonwealth of i18n - discussing questions regarding Habitica's translations and other Aspiring guilds. That's only the way we like to communicate here, and not requirements =) :2. Habitica appreciates the effort of all contributors! I don't think the staff expects any obligations from contributors so you are definitely not supposed to finish the work on your own. Once the language wiki is created everyone using Habitica and speaking the language will be able to edit it. If you are the one to create the wiki you'll be the first admin of it, as stated somewhere below in the chat =) Later on new admins can be added. :Dear wizards, please correct me if I'm inaccurate in details :) Here ends the material copied from the Wizards of the Wiki guild. Further discussion can continue below. ---- I (Alys) agree with all of Sphinx's comments above. In particular: *"We could think of including a requirement for Transifex reviewers to at least look through the articles edited by linguistic scribes ..." -- I like that and the rest of the ideas related to it. *"Actually we do have an opportunity to make translated wikis accessible from the web UI with HabiticaWikiFrontPage string which has the link to wiki. As of now, it seems only the French team has utilised this option." - Yes, we should arrange for that to be done on all wikis. *"On the other hand I believe users should be warned the translated text can be less accurate and up-to-date... I like the idea of the German wiki ... But I'd make the text a bit more friendly. I'd suggest having a nice-looking unified template - which can be inserted not only into the front page of the translated wikis, but also into the pages linked with "translated" links (currently about 37 links to the wiki are translatable)." -- Yes, and I like your suggested text from your later post. LadyAlys (talk) 04:20, March 13, 2016 (UTC) Actions for Alys *Find out which translated wikis currently use the shared repository of images (a non-admin might be able to do that too). EDIT: Wikia staff tell me that these wikis are already allowed to use images from the English wiki: ** http://ru.habitica.wikia.com ** http://de.habitica.wikia.com ** http://fr.habitica.wikia.com ** http://es.habitica.wikia.com *Request from Wikia staff that all the other translated wikis be enabled to use it. Ref. **EDIT: I have sent a request to Wikia staff listing all of our translated wikis. LadyAlys (talk) 21:04, March 13, 2016 (UTC) **EDIT: The Wikia staff now want to hear from the admins of the non-English wikis to confirm my request. I'll contact them. LadyAlys (talk) 05:44, March 15, 2016 (UTC) ** I've asked the Gwythyr, the pt-br admin about this: http://pt-br.habitica.wikia.com/wiki/Conversa:1732 and I've asked warownia1, the pl admin, about it in WotW LadyAlys (talk) 06:05, March 15, 2016 (UTC) NB: This is how Wikia staff describe the process of allowing one wiki to use the images in another: "The way it works, there's no real 'merging' to be performed - we just simply flip a switch that allows the non-English communities to use images from the English database." Other proposed actions *Politely request that the admins of the translated wikis consider doing this (French already done): "we do have an opportunity to make translated wikis accessible from the web UI with HabiticaWikiFrontPage string which has the link to wiki." *Develop a unified template with consistent words warning about outdated translations (see Sphinx's suggested words above), and ask all the wiki admins if they'd consider adding it. *See Sphinx's comments in Adding to the additional points below - there's some actions that any editor can help with. Questions for everyone *Should the contents of User:WikiaSphinx/Sandbox/Shared Repository be moved to Guidance for Linguistic Scribes? *Currently, when a new translated wiki is created, it's created by the people who want to translate it, which means they are the only admins. I (Alys) like the idea of giving them ownership, but it does create problems when they become inactive if they haven't created other admins. It means that no one has control over the wiki and edits to the home page (and other admin things) can't be done. I'm thinking it would be better if the English wiki admins created the translated wikis and (perhaps??) then assigned some of the translators to be admins too. Opinions? LadyAlys (talk) 04:20, March 13, 2016 (UTC) :We've changed Guidance for Linguistic Scribes to state that English wiki admins will create new translated wikis. LadyAlys (talk) 22:55, March 16, 2016 (UTC) Adding to the additional points 1. As far as I understood, only existing wikis could be linked to shared repository. It seems like Wikia doesn't provide for rules like "all language subwikis, including to be created in the future and non-existent now will be using shared repository from now on". So I'm afraid, that would be one-wiki-at-a-time requests (I still hope I may be wrong about it). At the same time admins of the translated wikis can make those requests themselves (linking to the approval of the admins of the main wiki) - the procedure just needs to be added to the guidance. WikiaSphinx (talk) 15:57, March 14, 2016 (UTC) : Yes, only existing wikis can be linked to shared repository. Agreed about adding the process to Guidance. LadyAlys (talk) 05:37, March 15, 2016 (UTC) 2. Regarding links to wiki from the UI: Instructions could be added to the translatable links to the Wiki on Transifex. Possible text: "String can link a translated article on a particular language wiki but please first double-check that the wiki exists in your language and the linked page (a) exists (b) has enough info © looks nice" WikiaSphinx (talk) 15:57, March 14, 2016 (UTC) : I like that. LadyAlys (talk) 05:37, March 15, 2016 (UTC) : Then consider this done =) For future use: https://www.transifex.com/habitrpg/habitrpg/translate/#ru/$?q=wikia.com&source_update_gt=2016-03-15 will show the lines updated after today and thus maybe lacking instructions WikiaSphinx (talk) 15:24, March 16, 2016 (UTC) 3. Considering documenting the shared repository in the Guidance for Linguistic scribes. My translation has been in sandbox, because I never happened to make a part of the article from it - to be moved to the Guidance. So if someone finds time to do it, I'll be pleased! Moreover, it could be great if someone could find practical examples by @Anothersphynx (@hairlessbear) and other members - they'd be very useful. WikiaSphinx (talk) 15:57, March 14, 2016 (UTC) 4. Guidance for Linguistic Scribes should point out that the first thing creators should do - is adding @LadyAlys as admin - at least just for the sake of helping with managing the wikis and keeping consistency. Alternatevely, those willing to translate could request creating a particular localised wiki in the WotW guild / special wiki form? WikiaSphinx (talk) 15:57, March 14, 2016 (UTC) : Perhaps it would be best if they asked one of the English wiki admins to create the wiki, and that admin would then remain as the primary admin, making it much easier to request changes from wikia staff or to make wiki-wide appearance changes for consistency with the English wiki. We could add some of the translators as admins so that they have control too. Does that sound okay to you? I'm reluctant to take power away from the translators but I think we do need to consider long-term control over the wikis, and there's no guarantee that some translators won't abandon Habitica without warning. : The request for a wiki could be made in the WotW guild; I think it won't happen often enough for a more formal process to be needed. : LadyAlys (talk) 05:37, March 15, 2016 (UTC) : Sounds good to me, if it's not much extra work for you and other admins of the English wiki. WikiaSphinx (talk) 15:24, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::We've changed Guidance for Linguistic Scribes to state that English wiki admins will create new translated wikis. LadyAlys (talk) 22:55, March 16, 2016 (UTC)